Fed

Club

Comments

CACC

Amersham

Running competitions. Recommend personal display setup, XGA resolution, but data format/compression not stated.  Note that IE is used for display (nb here - IE does not colour manage)

CACC

XRR

The XRR Previsions event is annual with print and slide competitions and a guest lecturer. In 2005, the lecturer was Andy Sands, an XRR member. Andy owns the Chiswick Camera Centre, and now uses only digital capture for his natural history at which he is an acknowledged expert. The presentation was all digital, using jpegs in MS Powerpoint. Incidentally, Powerpoint allowed sound effect files to execute with chosen pages.

Projector was a Toshiba TLP model. Like some US/Canadian sites, Andy chose to use a 768x768 image space so that verticals and horizontals occupy the same area on screen.

There was general agreement about the very high quality of the projected images. The only problem can be some highlight burn out where the down sampling and jpeg compression does lose a little detail.

CACC

Marlow

Runs DigiComp, an annual digital competition for members in CACC Clubs. Authors of PhotoCompViewer.  See Philip Stapleton.

EAF

Cambridge

Cambridge Camera Club have run, for the last three years, an Inter-Club Competition requiring entries in digital image format.  I have attached a PDF document giving the rules for this competition and instructions on how to prepare the images for submission.  We have always required that IPTC metadata fields be used to identify each image with the name of the photographer, the title of the image and the name of the submitting club.  This information would normally be on any print or slide submitted for Exhibition/Competition.  The JPEG image illustrates typical IPTC field allocation, although we now currently favour using "caption" instead of "Author Title" for the title of the image. (The IPTC field "Author Title" was originally intended for Author's job description and has a character length limitation)

The software used to present the images during the competition is called

iView MediaPro - It is available for both MAC and PC from:

http://www.iview-multimedia.com

Tony Sweet

Update:  See the 2006 Version of the Cambridge image preparation instructions.

KCPA

Ashford Quest

Contact  alan-crotty@tiscali.co.uk   sends this  PDF  of their draft proposals for submitting digital images.

Note. Limit of width to 900 pixels intended to make landscape and portrait more nearly similar size.  This is like some proposals in USA/Canada

Note. Like Maidstone, is proposing submission in AdobeRGB and aiming to calibrate projector to this.  Still unsure if that calibration is really feasible.

Update at 25/11/05

We have now held a couple of competitions using digital images, you may remember that we were going to try and integrate digital and traditional slides and project them seamlessly using black blanks as appropriate in each projector. Experience has shown us that this is not satisfactory, as the digital projector we are using is not able to project a true black (from enquiries of other users this is so with most if not all digital projectors at the moment.) thus degrading the slide images. So we have to run the slides and digital projected images separately. This has not proved to be a problem, as we are using Roy Moore's programme "ImageComp Pro" which allows us to score the digital and slides side by side and to hold back digitals for the judge to make his final decission on the winning image be that slide or digi.

You were also right to advise me that the slides would look dull by comparison with the digi imagaes, this will hastenthe demise of slides as a format, the digis look fantastic compared with the slides!

The only other issue with the digi projection is that of excessive contrast. Our club room is a training room during the day and has a PLUS U4 digital projector built in (lucky us). We have to ensure that the contrast of the projector is reduced from the nomal settings used by the trainers as we can suffer from burnt out higlights.

Alan

KCPA

Maidstone

Has digital competitions, and is leading on KCPA annual event.  See Roy Moore in contacts and ImageCompPro software in workflow.

First KCPA digital events was 29/10/05, and these comments from Roy Moore:

We had a huge entry - 623 images from 107 entrants who came from 22 clubs. This was above our original expectations considering that this was the KCPA's first digital competition.

We took a lot of care to try and ensure that images were displayed correctly and, having spoken to a number of the entrant who attended the event, we seem to have succeeded in getting that right. One influencial digital worker said that he had never seen his images looking so good on a big screen. A lot of that was down to our projector guru Dr. John Bowsher from Deal Camera Club. And below I have sent you some of his thoughts.

Now for the problems.

A considerable number of entrant submitted entries which were either not sized correctly or had an incorrect file name. Attached is a .pdf file of the entry form which you will see spells out what we required.  [Download a copy of the form here.]

The biggest error was image size. Many Portrait images were 1024 pixels in Height! Our approach to these errors was either to correct them (which I did in most cases) or go back to the entrant and have a word with them. The bottom line is that we need get clear instructions out to clubs on how to present images correctly. And ideally this would be a PAGB instruction for use throughout the UK.

I have not mentioned colour balance and profiling so far - a subject, I know which is very dear to many people who want to get digital imaging projection spot on. The fact is, as far as our competition was concerned, that it did not seem to be a big problem. The vast majority of the images shown on the big screen looked fine and I haven't had one complaint that the image shown on the night did not match the image that person saw on their monitor. I know that sounds surprising but that's the way it is!

We produced a special viewing programme( based on my digital competition software, ImageComp Pro) for our judge, Mike Chambers, so he could easily view and score the images prior to the event. And we also produced a bit of software to give the big event a professional look. It all seemed to work extremely well.

Finally we also produced a CD which included all the images submitted together with the judges audio commentary on the winners.

Roy

These comments from John Bowsher (Deal CC):

We used an Acer PD521 DLP projector (native 1024x768) - now obsolete as it's a year old, but the 522 and 525 look very similar - profiled using the GretagMacbeth Beamer (very expensive, but definitely worth it -- buy it with the aid of a lottery grant!) and projected onto a screen 10 feet across. The projector/screen/hall combination was profiled immediately before the show in front of the audience and took about 10 minutes, including showing the greyscale test card before and after. In my opinion, one should always use hardware profiling; as Adobe Gamma has serious failings at the extreme bright and dark ends. Why throw away some of the capabilities of the projector?

Profiling depends critically on the projector, the screen AND the room. The computer is only a number cruncher and doesn 't matter much providing its display is also 1024x768 and it's fast enough. So, unless the room is EXACTLY the same for every competition (i.e. projector and screen in the same places, no change in ambient light levels, no repainting of the room's walls/ceilings, no significant colour changes in the dress of audience members in the first couple of rows), profiling must be done every time to get the best results.

Everyone who has spoken to me about the competition has mentioned particularly the brilliance and depth of colour of the projected images. The black and white images from the best photographers were stunning, better than I have ever seen in Carter Cup (the KCPA Slide Competition) competitions, and the colour images were outstanding. Everyone was very surprised at the displayed resolution; it seemed far better than 1024x768 and as good, if not better, than that from film slides. (Theoretically that's not possible, but that's how it looked.)

A greyscale test card for everyone to use is of far greater utility than a colour one; the human eye/brain is easily misled when there are differing colours in close proximity, but is extremely sensitive to departures from neutral grey. That is why the KCPA test card comprises many shades of grey so users can immediately observe any failings of their set up, and know they have to profile their monitor and/or printer.

John

L&CPU

Southport

Southport PS has run a Digital section of our Open Exhibition for two years, and also two very successful Invitation Evenings for all the top clubs of the L&CPU. We also show digital A/Vs alongside tape/slide sequences in our club competitions. We use an Epson digital projector (model irrelevant since they soon are outdated), which when we bought it was expensive at over £3,000. We are pleased with this, but now comparable quality seems to be achievable at much less cost.

Our experience is that the technical quality of the projected images compares well with slides, and around theL&CPU we have seen that there are now quite a number of digital projectors which are very satisfactory. I would suggest to your committee that one of the most knowledgeable persons in the whole PAGB membership is Colin Balls FRPS, and he should be consulted on the key factors even if purchasers don't go on to buy a Royale.

The main problem arises in running digital competitions,with some big differences from slides and prints in that images cannot be physically handled and moved, and it is essential that they are precisely inputted. Entries must be correctly formatted, and then put into the main computer, which needs programming to show them, to mark them, to select them and to allocate them.

At Southport we decided to avoid the large task of typing in details of every image at time of receipt, and hence our entry form places this onus on the entrants. At first sight it seems a little daunting but most people get it right, and entrants are told that their entries are judged simply as submitted. Other BPE Exhibitions are interested in our approach, and our 'Author' who is also our current President, Peter Pauwels, is exchanging views. The BPE coordinating committee meets in September, and there will probably be discussion on getting a degree of consistency in entry requirements, to help the photographic community and also the exhibition organisers.

At present I can't attach an e-mail copy of our entry form, since  Peter has a second home in France and is there until September. We could send a copy by mail if you supply your postal address.

We hope this helps,   Keith (and Margaret) Suddaby

L&CPU

Wigan10

We are trying to make the way we use digital imaging more consistent.

Our current thoughts are:-

Size 1024

72Dpi

Saved as JPEG Level 12

Adobe RGB 1998

Use of Grey Scale (See Kent Website)

Ed Roper   Wigan 10

[Notes:  dpi not required.  Have enquired re Kent/Maidstone requirement for AdobeRGB.]

MCPF

Bromsgrove

For our internal competitions, Bromsgrove PS has just agreed the following:

Photographic files must be in JPG format, minimum compression and sized at 1024 pixels wide x 768 pixels high. Images smaller than this must have black borders to make the image the required size. File names must be in the format [abbreviated class]-[Authors name]-[Title].jpg for example ‘GD – John Bloggs – My Photo.jpg’ or ‘ND – Joe Soap – A Duck.jpg’

Entries must only be made on the memory sticks available from the society.

GD and ND mean General and Nature Digital, respectively.  The rule about the memory sticks is nothing more than to avoid the Society’s computer getting clogged, with all sorts of drivers, by standardisation of the portable media (we also make a few bob on the resale).

Peter Young

MCPF

Northampton

Detail of image preparation for digital projection. XGA, use Save for Web, jpg and ‘high’ quality (example shows quality 60%)

MCPF

Wolverhampton

Using DPI, but no technical detail

MCPF

Rushden

Has open exhibition with digital section.  No technical detail currently on site, but comments received.

Projector used to judge the images by and run the exhibition on opening night and round local clubs was Optoma EP739 model. It's a DLP (Digital Light Processing) projector, quiet, good contrast range and brightness.

Image requirements:  size was 1024 x 768 pixels 75dpi which worked out at about 150kb - 200kb per image

Colour space used for all images was sRGB

AV's were produced using PictureToExe and all images were projected during judging using CompuPic Pro.

Regards   John Tisbury ARPS BPE1*  Rushden Open Chairman

MCPF

Vale of Evesham

Projectors:  Must be native 1024x768, some projectors interpolate to get this resolution. Be careful of the "throw" of the projector, many are set to be used in small meeting rooms and hence need to be very close to the screen.

Projector setup:  (referring to consistency)  Don't think this is realistically possible at the moment, quality, contrast, colours etc seem to vary widely.

Data files etc:  Just like with prints, we believe this should ‘largely’ be the authors’ choice.  However, for our national and club competitions we ask for JPG files only, preferably sized to 1024 x 768.  (N.B.  The format biases towards landscape images, since that is always 1024 wide, 768 high). We chose this because:  (a) JPG have no inherent colour space issues, they are all the same.  (b) Author has control over compression,  (c) Is not proprietary. For the purposes of competition entry a file saved as low-compression, maximum quality JPG is not distinguishable from other formats that we could tell.  PSD is obviously proprietary to Photoshop and hence cannot be the default.  Similar most camera RAW formats are also proprietary. In our club compo's we are flexible and will accept other formats and the competition sec resizes and reformats as appropriate - this is to assist those members who have only RAW format files, or files from scans to CD, but may not have their own computer equipment.

Display s/w:  For still images, the quality is certainly different from slides, we do not have mixed comps of slides and digital.  There are also logistical issues around mixing slide and digital for scoring/judging purposes etc. For AV images digital display is brilliant. Since our club bought its projector we now have several members doing AV's that were never done before.

Workflow:  For competition purposes we have written our own software. For our national exhibition we have an extended database system that lets us display and score images using different ordering schemes etc., effectively relicating the old print/slide processes but in a much more simplified way.  Our system uses two linked computers, one for scoring, one for displaying. For our club competitions we have a simpler one computer application which lets the "projectionist", move through the images, pull-out images for final judging.  The software can also optionally show the filename and author - helpful in logistics of scoring and also for applause! Although there is quite a bit of software around that handles the display of images, I am not aware of any which is matched to the needs of competitions and exhibitions for camera clubs.

As a footnote: in our national exhibition (PAGB, MCPF approved) we were of the view that our rules may change over time, so we have kept them as few as possible.  Largely the submission rules are exactly as they were for prints/slides.  As is the judging process and so on. However, we do have submission requirements (currently 1024x768 JPG on CD) that we anticipate will change as technology moves on.

Simon Walden,  Vale of Evesham Camera Club

E: sqw@EveshamCameraClub.co.uk

W: www.EveshamCameraClub.co.uk

National Exhibition: www.Photo2005.net

MCPF

Shropshire PS

Oct-06.  Open competition/exhibition including a projected digital section. Advice notes on the entry form are good in describing how to size the file, provide a background, and write to CD as maximum quality jpeg. Only omission is any advice about colour profile use and embedding (or not).

NCPF

Tees Digital Photo Group

Includes an equipment section posted by members.

SF

Isle of Wight

Advertising an open competition.  Pictures max 500x500 pix  (note wrongly requires 72dpi), in jpeg <60KB (small)

SF

Newbury

Received a grant for projector, aimed at training

SF

Southampton

Digital competitions.  XGA, on CD, jpeg/tiff ie, not requiring compression.

SF/SPA

Farnborough

When I contacted you originally, I mentioned that we were developing our own software for digital projection competitions called Digital Competition Presenter. This has been completed for some time now and we have successfully used it in a number of internal competitions. The author, Hien Quan, one of our members is now making the software available to other clubs and has received some positive feedback – information about the program’s functionality can be accessed via the following link http://www.somefotos.com/DCP The program was written with the intention of providing a user-friendly intuitive program which adopts the same processes used in club competitions in the existing formats of slides and prints. The link also enables a download of a trial version which I hope you will take a few moments to view. As proven software, we would welcome its inclusion in the report, if possible at this stage.

Terry Redman

SPA

South London Federation

I believe you are organising a technical standards group for competitions etc using digital projectors. I have compiled an advisory page for member clubs of the South London Federation at http://www.fslps.org.uk/knowledgebase.htm about projectors etc.

It is very much work-in-progress and I would welcome any feedback from your group or any pointers to working documents (I can't find anything on the PAGB site).

If I can contribute in any other way please let me know. If you have a circulation list could you add me to it please?

Steve Wilbur

Comment:  Deals with all the basics, recognising the problem of portrait pictures being smaller, and avoiding any in-house rescaling if possible (like RPS requirement). Refer to US/Canadian views that landscape images should be limited in width to compensate.  Projector calibration suggestions are more complex than many would suggest necessary.

SPA

Ludshott

contact qv

SPA

Tandridge

contact qv

SPF

St Andrews

Aug-06: These are comments submitted having read the Third Interim Report of Apr-06.

Section 6.1 - Resolution. This section appears to be saying that it is not worth going for anything better than XGA. To the eye, a 1400x1050 projector (Canon SX50) looks better than an XGA projector. A good slide in a properly focussed Leica projector looks better still. Until this resolution performance can be matched by digital projectors, we should try to get the best available and not settle for second best.

Section 7.3 - PC Graphics Resolutions. The need to match the computer and projector resolution is often not realised. My club (St Andrews PS), has solved this one with a Canon SX50 projector and a Hi-Grade Notino laptop with a native screen resolution of 1400x1050. The combination works well.

Section 8.2.4 - Calibration Equipment. It should be pointed out that calibration and profiling are two separate processes, although often carried out together for display devices. Calibration is adjustment of brightness, contrast, colour temperature etc, so that the device works the way it should. Profiling is relating the numbers in the computer to real life colours on the screen. (See "Real World Color Management", 2nd ed, by Fraser, Murphy & Bunting, page 84.) Calibration must be done first, so that the profile, if used, has an easier job to do.

As my club is a long way from where Tony Riley lives, we have not had our Canon projector profiled, but have attempted to calibrate it using test images. In sRGB mode, the projector is excellent, the only significant adjustment required being the gamma which can be changed using the menu.

Section 9.1 - Display software. There is a need for advice on this, as many of the common display programs do not correctly interpret embedded profiles, and many club members do not even know what embedded profiles are. Getting this wrong can have a big effect on image quality. In the absence of suitable display software, we encourage everyone to convert to sRGB and have produced guidance notes on all aspects of image preparation. Even so, it may be a considerable time before members get it right reliably.

Alaistair Ramsay, St Andrews Photographic Society.

WPF

Gwynfa

Advertising open PDI event in Oct-05

have tried to answer your questions as best I can with help from several colleagues. However, some of the questions are quite technical and I cannot promise the answers will be satisfactory. Also, we have only just purchased the projector and laptop and have not actually used it 'in anger' as yet. When we do, I anticipate that we will have other problems to consider and overcome, some of which may affect the answers I have given below. (My answers are in blue).

Features (pro and con) of digital projectors suitable for PDI.  (But not necessarily individual makes and models.)

We were advised to purchase a projector with the following minimum standards (our actual purchase is in parenthesis).

Minimum resolution    1024x768 (1024x768)

Minimum brightness    1500 lumens (2300 lumens)

Minimum contrast ratio   400:1 (2100:1)

Connection Type:   VGA (VGA)

Features (pro and con) of computers and graphic cards for driving digital projectors.

We were advised to purchase a laptop with the following minimum standards (our actual purchase again in parenthesis).

Minimum screen size   1024x768 (1680x1050)

Minimum graphics memory   64mb (128mb)

Minimum RAM   500mb (1gb)

Minimum hard disk space   60gb (80gb)

Output ports   USB and VGA (USB, VGA, Firewire and others)

Sound Card   Must be able to connect to external amplification (line out).

Features (pro and con) of flash memory and display software, which may be proprietary to the projector

Unable to answer.

Methods of setting up a digital projector so that the PDI appearance is consistent for each local use, and thus more likely to be consistent for all event organisers.

Our 'expert' on this subject intends to scan a Q60 colour target to use as an on-screen colour match target. We intend to adjust this by eye with in conjunction with a selection of well known club images.

When we begin using the projected images in competition, we see it far, far more important to ensure our chosen judge has a well set up home PC system as judging is always done in advance by the judge at home. Consequently, any slight difference in the projected images on the night will be both 'uniform' (same for everyone) and unimportant as the deliberations will have already been made. Our club does not allow judging 'on the day' due to the inherent inconsistency and unfairness of this method.

Anyone using our digital projection system to give a presentation will be asked to be directly involved in the set up process, theirs being the final 'say'.

The effects of variation in data files and format prepared by authors and typically used for PDI eg, pixel dimensions, managed colour space, file formats and compression, where the objective is to achieve consistent appearance from author through to any display.

We intend to specify the requirements of entry. We have already researched this question and have come up with the following requirements:

Maximum Dimensions   1024 (w) x 768(h)  (One side of the file MUST be one of these sizes, thus avoiding small images).

File Type:   JPEG only

Maximum Resolution   72dpi

Maximum File Size  3mb (maximum Jpeg setting at these sizes rarely produces files of more than 2mb)

Jpeg Setting   Maximum

We understand this gives the 'optimum' file size for both the projected image and the speed at which the display programme copes with the file sizes.

Features (pro and con) of imaging display software, for either static images or AV

Methods of workflow so that PDI from many authors may be managed and displayed effectively and efficiently by an event organiser eg, competition, exhibition, etc.

We intend to use a programme called 'pictures to exe' which allows both an automatic and manual presentation with or without music. We have also purchased our own copy of Adobe Photoshop CS

I hope these answers help you in some way. If you have any advice or guidance to pass on, please feel free to do so.

Regards,  Leigh Woolford,  Chairman,  Gwynfa Camera Club.

WPF

Swansea CC, organisers of the Swansea International with PSA and FIAP patronage

(This is an edited abstract of their communication, with editorial comments in blue.)

Swansea is the first of the internationals to go down this route since FIAP this year agreed new section titles Projected Images IE both digital and slides in same sections. Smethwick and Southampton are watching and are going digital next year. We have the backing of Swansea City Council Swansea Institute  part of the University of Wales and Arts Council of Wales who through the lottery fund much of our equipment. They recently paid for two computers software and 30" screen principally for the international. (Note use of large LCD screen rather than projector.)

Like most exhibitions we are feeling our way. We have from America a full programme that runs a digital exhibition from entry to On line catalogue.

FIRST is that one has to have a method of calibrating all parts of the system. We turned to a Birmingham company, (www.colourcollective.co.uk - see Setup), and we purchased Gretag McBeth calibration system worth that will calibrate monitors scanners printers and Digital projectors although this has to be done for every screen you work on.  It overcomes all the problems of colour space etc. It is already proving itself as we can now work on more than one computer including lap tops and get 95 % the same colour. It is just a learning curve on the equipment before we get even closer. In printing it has moved us forward to a higher level and when next year we allow digital images into our monthly comps it will again prove its worth.

Although we have a projector (a Canon now 3 years old), we took the decision that we would judge using LCD or Plasma. It turned out that Plasmas are to heavy and delicate so we now have a 30" lcd screen which we will be using in Sept. We did this as we feel that projecting diminishes the quality of the image (at least with ours it did) and then we can also use the LCD panel in our annual exhibition and for the static International exhibition. Being mixed (slides and digital) we are still going to adjudicate slides first have a break then do digital.

Deciding on a formula for receiving is at present our own view and we have said we will project at 1024 Pixels on the longest side at 300 DPI in large Jpeg format. . Jpeg as this is the format for PicturesToExe, and best for electronic transfer. 300DPI as this is wanted by our printers. (Comment:  As with others, there is confusion about the use of DPI/PPI, which has no relevance for projected/screen images, but only determines the size of print for given pixel dimensions.)  Entrants can send in in this format, or straight off the camera and we will convert for them.

One thing to watch for is that if you use widescreen lap tops it does stretch the image. Also there is a new DVI connection coming on stream that provides a better quality image. Roy Thomas has just purchased equipment for WPF that has this ability

I am looking at the following for the judging.  I am putting files into folders for Travel and Open and will probably use Power point to project them manually.  There will be a ref nos or the title under the image to keep track.  As they are judged we will drag a duplicate copy from another system and drop them into folders with relevant marks 11 12 13 14 15. Then we will be able to show images quickly for judges to sort out awards. Since they won’t be able to see them on a light box we hope to be able to project them finally as a set of thumbnails in PicturesToExe or Photoshop, and to be able to drag them around as judges see fit.

Philip Davies, Swansea CC

n/a

General Remarks

Relatively few Clubs have been found with explicit detail about PDI.  Despite that, it is interesting that nearly everybody is happy with making picture galleries to display on the web in the absence of explicit instructions, and without colour management.  The wide range of pictures all look good, and are a credit to their authors.

n/a

Clubs attending Warwick in Jul-05

Questionnaire being issued by Peter Brown with post event paperwork